Another screencast preview of the new Mandriva Application Manager (the name may be changed to Mandriva Package Manager or else, once we plan to have a web version, more focused on applications) has been published at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHKDpl8UKMQ . It maintains some features from the original design but is more native oriented. One of the main difference is that now instead of Get, Manage and Learn tabs, we have Simple, Advanced and Settings. The first two are meant to define the complexity and powerfulness of the features displayed and enabled to the user. The last is to configure MAM itself (like customizing the view to have a grid instead of a list). Pretty soon a package with a preview version (with only search capabilities) will be available on Cooker. I will let you know. Cheers!
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Crisis after crisis, you seems unable to learn design. What does your animations serve? Why are so large the bubles? Poor readability either because of poor contrast, or pseudo awful style apply to police. A frame border that look Netscape age… Not yet the day of Mandriva is to come…
Hello Fabrice, the visual elements are there to make it helpful for the user to deal with the huge amount of packages in our repository. Surely we won’t achieve the taste of everyone, that is why we need customization features to, at least, promote modifications to better fit someone desire. I think the best way would be to first try it yourself and give us further constructive feedback, what indeed would be very appreciated. Thanks.
You don’t have to try this to see it’s annoying: On the one hand you try to make things easier, but eye candy doesn’t make things easier, especially if you still see the back to basic package names. They will ensure that basic users will not even try to install new stuff, so why all the fuzz about GUI design ?
Sliding basic-advanced-settings buttons ? Nice idea, but why an implementation with looks like it’s 1995 ?
Why the hell are the install buttons moving ? Nothing more annoying than a button walking around on your screen. I’m not epileptic, but even I think this constant flashing if you move your mouse is annoying like hell. I really was a Mandriva fan, but sorry guys, you can’t be serious about this.
Hello JosH. If you try it you can better have your own experience and judgments. Nothing bad with eye candies and usable stuff. What we have here is substitution to rpmdrake, but we want more than that. The GUI is supposed to helpful to the ones who prefer to use it instead of CLI based tools. You mentioned the sliding buttons. They are shown just to demonstrate we are getting a visual integrated with the current visual identify of Mandriva (see cooker version). The buttons are not meant to be moving around. What is demonstrated is the possibility to have a different layout for these elements (as the expanded list views – hiding panel). We are talking about possible customizations, not playing around with possible such features.
For what are good these stupid toys?
But there is other question.
Where is another testing release Mandriva 2011?
Hello ferri, this tool is meant to simplify package management. I hope you give it a try when it is available, so you can give us a constructive feedback and help us improve it. We would appreciate. Thanks.
According me package management isn’t question of these days.
Mageia 1 is using present version of package management without any problems.
I plan testing another beta 3/release candidate Mandriva 2011. So I wait.
last time that I’ve used a GUI , was on 2008.0 ( I think) …. IMHO let the “urpmi” be …
best rpm tool ever is urpmi , and I think I’ll stuck with it …
Please tell me you did not do that on purpose….
Hello Caede, I hope you give it a try and bring suggestions too. Thanks.
Wow, seems great!
Good job guys!
Thanks lynda, soon it will be available for you to test.
Please hire a designer. This looks both awful and unusable.
Hello Peter, I hope you give it a try and have your suggestions. Thanks.
well, this is really not beautifull, is that suppose to be a qt4 integration ? You should use the widget theme or plasma. You should also remove this awfull sphère before the name and but the icon of the application like ubuntu software center or linux mint software center or pardus or kpackagekit.
Hello yvan, we use QT/QML for the interface. The majority of the ‘widgets’ come from the desktop components project. The spheres are there to indicate status. As this tool has become more package focused (see the description), icons is not our priority for it. A new project entirely focused on applications will fill this need with a plenty of other nice features. Thanks.
Hi all ; It’s nice to see that something is happening
How do one searches for a package name with urpmi ?
I mean something like apt-cache search “super package” (something like this) retunrs a list a all matching packages, along with their description field. When urpmi package just says “oh there are alot of packages matching, this one, this one… Notice the “…” ? What is that ? I’m sorry, what is that ? Why in hell would urpmi *conceal* information ? Please tell me :
Is there a way to search for a package name (*not* the content of a package) with urpmi and :
-Get the full list of matching packages <= this would already be pretty cool
-Get descriptions along <= I sense I'm asking too much
Et tant qu'on y est, since drakconf fetches a list of all available packages, and caches it to search it, would it be possible to search in this list ?
Hello xaccrocheur, the main objective of this tool is to simplify interaction with back-end tools like urpmi and rpm. Of the two features you requested, the complete list of the packages matching the filters you choose are already done and the descriptions will be displayed once the user clicks on ‘+INFO’ button. For Advanced, we are going to expose more urpmi and rpm functionalities. Thanks.
I must have made myself unclear ; I know I can use other tools, for one thing drakconf IS doing that (searching for packages and return the names and descriptions) so no need for another bloated UI (that’s just me) but I’d like to use the shell to do that. I don’t want to click no “+INFO” button, I’m sorry no offense but is sounds like really bad ergonomics.
Please somebody tell me how, from the shell, in Mandriva, I can search for a package name and get a list of matching packages.
I mean, is’nt your tools (Drakconf & MAM) frontends for urpmi ? Am I missing something ?
“Please somebody tell me how, from the shell, in Mandriva, I can search for a package name and get a list of matching packages.”
urpmq -y [string]
man urpmq
for two examples. urpmi and friends is a powerful suite of extensions to RPM that was/is developed by Mandriva, né Mandrake. There is what I have found to be comprehensive documentation in the manuals, with a listing of all related manuals at the bottom of every urpm* man page.
Thank you very much, Rolf. Now who needs anything else ?
Hi xaccrocheur,
The answers you are searching for are simple:
- urpm*
See for more details http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Urpmi
About that video, I would really like to see the actual installation process :
Is there a global progress bar *and* a detailed one ?
Can I see the *full* list of the packages I’m installing *while* I’m installing them ? <= Guys, this is *crutial* à la aurora remember aurora ? I loved it. You canned it. Bref.
Is everything inside a global app of are there dialogs popping up, named "please wait (2)" ?
Is the install process cancellable without hanging for ages and (possibly, has'nt happened to me for a long time now, kudos on that guys) breaking havoc in the RPM db ?
Those, IMO, are the real issues that a new urpmi frontend has to tackle, not this animation nonsense, I mean what's with the buttons moving when you click on the package name ? A BUTTON THAT MOVES ? REALLY ? You find this funny ? What is the *idea* ? Is there a good answer to this questions ? Come on, guys, stop that already, your embarrassing every Mandriva user.
For all I know, if you're not going to address the issues listed above, you might as well not touch Drakconf at all, witch is quite fine as of now, not perfect but stable. I'm not sure about what you are doing rolling out a new UI. Guys, we are the users, we want to help, so please listen to us.
A button that moves in the UI. Now I've seen everything. And I'm quite young, mind you.
About the installation process: sure there will be a global and detailed progress bar. You will be able to see the installing packages. A safe canceling is planed too.
About the buttons. The intention here is to have a moving button. What the video is trying to demonstrate is that we would like to have more elements customizable to have something more flexible for the user. The main idea here is to share ideas and mainly to allow our community to have the opportunity to give a word prior to get something. Actually, I think this is something to be proud of; and furthermore, we really care about the feedback we get. That is why I am here to talk. I hope you give it a try and give us all the suggestions you wish. Thanks again.
It is looks like more comfortable and powerful than the previous version. Thanks for that. But we didn’t see the installation process. I hope the installation-window will be more informative and will contain a list of packages with with something like a status indicator after the each package.
And, of course, I’m waiting a new iso for test:)
Hello meequz, thanks. We have had a big change on the way to go with application management here and this has guide us to a tool more focused on packages in substitution to rpmdrake. This is an early new preview, so many thing may change and others may be added. What kind of status do you mean? Like marking which package has just been installed? Let me know.
For example, I chose two packages for remove, two for install and one for update, than clicked “Apply”. A window appears with a list of these five packages, where I can see which package is now downloading / installing / removing. If it downloading, at what a speed. In short, all as in current version, but with the list. So I could see how many and which packages have passed and how many are left.
And, since we were talking, one more thing. I need a function that I can mark the installed package as non-updatable. If the update will spawn in repository after this, than GUI would not show it in the available updates.
I hope I’m clearly expressed my opinions. Excuse me if something is wrong, cause English is not my native language.
Hi meequz, now I see. Thanks for your clarification. Actually, what we plan is to once the user clicks on Install/Remove/Update buttons, we would show a global and a specific (for each chosen package) progress bar. So, you will be able to get the information you wish. I’m taking note of this speed suggestion. About marking a package as non-updatable, we plan to have that too. Your text is clear. Thanks a lot for your comment.
You mean if there’s 30 packages to download and install then there will be 30 progress bars? That’s a no for me.
I’d rather suggest one progress bar and a changing text label plus some more info: download speed and estimated time back. That changing text label would always state what’s happening while that one progress bar would grow. E.g. “Downloading krusader…” and when it finished then “Downloading UMplayer…” when finished downloading then “Installing Krusader…” etc.
Hi there,
Nice try this one, it’s better that the first one. Things are improving, but my question is: will you have enough time before the 2011 final release? I think it’s best to ship 2011 with the MCC and integrate MAM futher this year when it’ll be mature enough.
Now, speaking about simplicity why in “Simple” mode I see dependencies of libraries and other packages? I’d like that this to be as simple as AppStore or Androuid Market, to show you only the icon of the application with no dependencies and stuff! If it’s a CLI tool, you’ve got to came wit a representative icon.
About the name: I think that for a simple to use tool the word “package” in title is completely inappropriate! Did you see the name “dmg” in AppStore title or “Cabinet/exe” in the title of Microsoft applications? NON! So “application” is the right word.
But if you want people to remember easily, you have to get rid of this geek name like “Mandriva Application Manager” and replace it with one simpler, sexier and with more marketing impact like: KIOSK
Cheers!
Hello Piratu’, we hope to have something – even if with minor functionalities – available to the user already in the 2011 release. I understand your concerns. Actually, we have split the application management into two projects, leaving the raw packages to the tool being demonstrated here and and a much more featured (and rich) for a new web platform that has been designed. We would like to have the ‘Simple’ as simple as possible and not displaying low end packages, but our current meta-data (used in the repository) does not facilitate this work and we probably won’t get where we would like. The other project will help with this, normalizing and improving the meta-data over the time. As for the name, with the split I mentioned above, maybe package could make more sense. But, your opinion is important to us. Thanks for that too.
My question is about searching. Currently, in rpmdrake, it is possible to search for a word in the description or in the details. Will it be possible in MAM? Will it be possible to make complex search, like two or three words? Example: “office help spanish” should only return the package “openoffice.org-help-es”.
As Piratu said, in the “simple” mode, there is no need to show libraries or dependencies. I also agree that the Android Market can be a model to follow.
No need for pop-up windows. You can embed the global and partial download / installation bars inside the MAM.
One simple, catchy word is much better than “Mandriva Application Manager”. Kiosk could be a would one.
Finally, if it is not going to be ready for Mandriva 2011, at least work out the search in rpmdrake.
Good work!
Hi motitos. Yes, this is an important feature we want to have. Regex and multiple patterns to increase the powerfulness of the search. For now we are dealing only with the package name, but we plan to include summary, descriptions and other meta-datas for searching purposes. The simple mode is more intended to fill the gap till we get the new application web platform. This one will surely fulfill much better the necessity of a modern and collaborative tool. About the progression bar, it is embedded indeed. We will try to delivery as much as we can (as long as it works fine) for the 2011.
Before I get to the GUI let me ask you something. Did you write functional specification before you started coding? If not then stop coding and write the specs first.
I’m sorry if it sounds disdainful but you should have started with writing the specs first.
Here’s a series of articles (consists of 4 parts) which tells you why, who and how to write functional specifications:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000036.html
I strongly encourage you to read at least the first 2 parts.
Now about the GUI.
First of all good GUI is good because it works exactly how the user expects it. Down to the last detail. So it’s not the place where you should get creative. No matter what some guys write on the community forums.
Now where did you see moving buttons before? Not in KDE and not in Windows. MacOS? If not how do you think your users will react when they see something totally unexpected?
A GUI is familiar because it builds from familiar pieces: widgets.
Since KDE now is the only DE developed by Mandriva this tool should blend seamlessly into KDE. So stop inventing things and use what KDE apps use. Although KDE is not really the prime example of GUI design either.
Let’s see an example. In ROSA menu the selection rectangle of an icon follows the mouse cursor instead of appearing when the mouse is over an icon and disappearing when the mouse cursor is moved. This is totally unexpected and a prime example how it shouldn’t be done. No matter how small this thing is. From the video it looks like you use this same function on the top menu (Simple\Advanced\Settings) and on the left sidebar. Just don’t. And while you’re at it please tell the ROSA guys to ditch it too.
What’s the difference between the Simple and Advanced window? It doesn’t show in the video. And why is the “Settings” option there? It should be somewhere else.
What’s that slider doing on the bottom? In the previous video it used to magnify icons. I didn’t understand then why is it necessary to magnify icons in a package manager before, and I still don’t understand it. What’s even more puzzling is that you found it so important you put it in a prominent place on the screen so it can be used any times. It’s a package manager. Who do you think will increase\decrease icon size all the time? Put it in a settings dialog. The user sets it once if he\she wants then forgets it.
The other thing is the colorful little buttons down there. If I read it correctly they are for filtering the packages, e.g show upgrades etc. Well I can’t help but notice that the entire sidebar is dedicated for this purpose alone. Not to mention that those buttons are tiny (google for Fitt’s law if you don’t understand why it’s important). So move them to the left sidebar to the other filters.
On the other hand when I install packages I don’t really care where they come from. I make the decision of using only official packages or official packages plus community packages once when I add the repos. And it’s not a decision I often question. So I don’t see any point of keeping that particular filter there.
Now I don’t know if it even makes sense to close the sidebar but even if it is I’m sure I wouldn’t start to look for the closing button of the left sidebar in the lower right corner.
Older versions of the Opera browser had a little triangle on the right side of the left sidebar. It behaved like a big vertical button. You pressed it the sidebar disappeared.
That’s about enough I think.
As a final conclusion again I strongly encourage you to start designing before coding. Even better would be to start to read something about GUI design before actually doing GUI design.
Joel Spolsky has some good articles on that too. You can start here (but there must be more): http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000062.html
I managed to screw up the links. Please fix them.
Done.
Thanks.
Hello dexter11. I first would like to thank you for the great attention you have given into the work we are doing. Your advices and collaboration is really what we meant to have when publishing stuff here. I believe being creative (in all extension – UI is not an exception) is exactly what we are supposed to be, if not, we should step aside and let the others promote innovations for the community. I see you do not like some stuff like the “selection rectangle” behavior. It is different indeed, but it does not mean it is not a nice surprising thing. The time and user experience are going to guide us. About Simple/Advanced, it is not implemented yet (that is why you do not see any changes on the video), but it is meant to keep all the advanced features (not used by most of the users) as its name implies. The main reason for its existence is to fill the gap till we get the new platform. The zoom is about increasing the amount of visible data if they do not fit well on the screen even when maximizing. But actually, it was there (as the other elements) more as possibility (that is why it was not even touched) and as we are dealing with packages it quite probably won’t exist. A switcher happened to not be shown on the video but we have one to switch between list and grid mode, and, of course, it is facing its death. About the status buttons going to the left, actually we test some time ago, but seemed a bit polluted. But it is good thing to try again with the elements we probably are going to remove. For the sources, it is good to have a way to filter the packages based on that too. Most of time we add all the sources available, so we do not miss some package we are not aware of. It is a matter of how much flexibility (for filtering) do we want to provide to the user. The important thing is to sync this element with the available source, so if the user do not add Community media source, obviously, this option should not be present. Managing source media is planned too. Hiding the left panel is under discussion too and may be not present. Clicking the separator bar to have this hiding effect was done at the past too, but, it seemed that (once we already would have the lower bar) using a more intuitively shapped button could be better. Once this bar is getting a bit empty and may even not exist, the separator will have this role, if hiding continues. Thanks again, I hope once you get a version to test you give us further feedback and continue to help us to improve what we do.
I see you do not like some stuff like the “selection rectangle” behavior. It is different indeed, but it does not mean it is not a nice surprising thing.
On the contrary. It’s not nice because it’s unusual. You shouldn’t use it just because it’s unusual and surprising.
It’s a package manager, it shouldn’t surprise users. It’s there for installing and\or removing software. Anything that can break the users focus to achieve that task should be considered harmful and not be used.
The basics of GUI design exist for years now. You just have to use them and not reinvent them. Because any new behavior of the GUI should be backed by massive usability testing which you can’t afford. So use the behavior which users already got used to: the selection rectangle appears when the mouse cursor hovers.
About Simple/Advanced, it is not implemented yet (that is why you do not see any changes on the video), but it is meant to keep all the advanced features (not used by most of the users) as its name implies. The main reason for its existence is to fill the gap till we get the new platform.
What new platform?
The zoom is about increasing the amount of visible data if they do not fit well on the screen even when maximizing. But actually, it was there (as the other elements) more as possibility (that is why it was not even touched) and as we are dealing with packages it quite probably won’t exist. A switcher happened to not be shown on the video but we have one to switch between list and grid mode, and, of course, it is facing its death.
Is there a point to grid mode, I assume that means icon view, when all the package icons are the same? In the previous video only Firefox had a different icon than the others. Plus the icon view doesn’t show any additional information, only the package name. So I suggest you to just ditch it.
Instead of zooming a simple drop down list can be used. Or a pop-up window, like in Ubuntu software center.
The names of the packages should be visually separated. Rpmdrake does a good job on that. One package name has a white background color the next a light blue etc.
For the sources, it is good to have a way to filter the packages based on that too.
It’s not just good it’s necessary. Occasionally it’s very useful. Emphasis on occasionally. The problem is that it’s present on the main screen. Put it on the “Settings” screen. The app then reloads the package database anyway, unless you’ve done some magic, so nothing productive can be done until it’s finished. Conclusion: it’s hardly an often used feature IMHO.
Some coments:
1. The dark theme you use is ugly
2. That same dark theme make a gradient in the background that make the real information hard to read
3. The colored bubbles you seem to use to filter the set of software is completely unintuitive. Moreover, using too many colors is just a usability nightmare for daltonians and visual impaired.
4. The moving buttons are the worse idea i’ve ever seen for usability. Think about disabled people, old people, newcommers to computers, or just normal users uncomfortable with a touchpad: they sometimes even have problems to double click on something, and you ask them to go to the opposite end of the screen (which on a desktop screen can be far away) to click on your buttons ?
5. The large vertical separator between categories and the results panel is useless and eats valuable space on a netbooks screen.
In general, you focused in eye candy, the bad way. Instead of using it to add valuable information, you used it to make things “look nice” (from your point of view), which gives a disastrous feeling in terms of usability.
Your effects only distract the user from what he wants to do…
Hi liberforce. Thanks for your feedback.
1,2. Maybe if you have it in front of you it would not look that “ugly”, the video compression make things worser than it is. Others options have been used and others are to come. Anyway, this is your opinion and we care!
3. Good to know you do not find those “colored bubbles” intuitive, even having them near the package title. I do not think we are using that much colors, but will take note too.
4. As I mentioned above, there is not such “moving buttons”. It shows possibilities of layouts (what could also be part of the settings).
5. It was meant to be a bit large to be easier when hovering, in the presence of hiding panel. If this hiding features does not come to live, the separator won’t exist.
Thanks again!
Devolopers,
It looks nice, it should make things more appealing and be a nice addition
in the long run.
when i saw the wor new looks and feel
i thought it is a jump to the futur,not to the past
is that a new feel or an old 60′s feel ???
i think u should go back to the old feel i mean the bleu one
thx
The people talk by talk, but doing nothing, great job, it’s look well. go ahead team mandriva my favorite LINUX.
I actually like this interface, but as was mentioned before that gradient might be better replaced by alternating light blue and white backgrounds for the packages.
The only aspect that stands out to me is that while we have major categories, we don’t have sub-categories under them. Upon clicking on a major category you could have the sub-categories revealed in the left panel. I only mention this because it can help speed things up when trying to find a suitable application [remember, if you don't know its name, or what is available, then the search function is effectively useless.]
As with all things, compare the old system with the new system, if you lose functionality then its not quite ready. If you gain more functionality than the old system, and can make it usable, then it is being done right.
I had Unity upgrade on Ubuntu and spoilt it to the point of not being able to boot my system by trying to get recordmydesktop to work so now have Mandriva 2010 on after much anguish with the boot and having to upgrade from the 2008 disk that I had and putting it onto a different hard drive. I like Mandriva but honestly I will be changing back because one of the things I do with my computer is relax and play Runescape and I used to like to record bits of the game. I can’t even play properly on this op sys because the java applet crashes and I can’t record it on ANY Linux op sys now. If any of you gurus of Linux come up with something that RECORDS THE DESKTOP and also PLAYS JAVA GAMES ONLINE yuu will be the tops honestly. I looked for help with the recordmydesktyop and it seems that many many people want to use it and there is nothing else that does the trick.
Its cool ,, I liked it . Im gonna install the 3th beta , I just hope Mandriva hasn´t integrated Gnome 3 yet .. because it doesn´t work with my graphic card
sayang saya pake MAC jadi kurang ngerti pake Mandriva,dulu cie pernah nyoba pake Linux BACKTRACK sebentar waktu kepepet
I simply added this website to my bookmarks. I love reading you. It turned out quite helpful and solved the problem tons
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